Everywhere I look, it’s doom and gloom. Reading nothing but negativity has started affecting my worldview and my life.
I am less than a year away from completing my undergraduate degree in Computer Science and Data Science. A year ago, everyone congratulated me on my hard work and wise decision-making. Over the last six months, though, all I’ve heard is how I’ve wasted my time, how there are no jobs, and how a college degree is supposedly worthless.
I’ve been told multiple times that tech is dead and I should become a plumber because “the trades are the new master’s degree.” Well, you know what? I don’t want to be a plumber, and I am tired of the negativity.
I’m not pursuing a career in tech for the paycheck. Anyone who chooses a career solely for the dollar amount is setting themselves up for a life of misery. I’m on this journey because it aligns with my interests and passions.
To the best of my knowledge, few career options out there guarantee a $500k salary, let alone make it achievable. My family can live a fulfilling, happy life on $60k a year, anything beyond that is just gravy.
now THIS is a comment I do agree with. Stop the crap about being success means solely having an edge salary and begin thinking about living fulfilling life's
Youtubism is the name of the game. Unnecessary hype for anything and everything that is moderately competent. The dirty little secret is that the current down-slump of tech is purely due to extraneous conditions such as high interest rates, acesss to a lot of capital by VCs, AI hype by the article writer, overall economy and the hesitancy to invest, etc. Again, tech has provided a lot of employment and made lives of a lot of people better and we have a long way to go. Walk the streets of SF and even if you are moderately competent about spilling BS about AI and have a decent background, VCs are throwing money at you.
Stick it out, I feel your pain as my son is a HS junior who wants to pursue software development. It’s tough for new/juniors during every downturn, and that will eventually change. But I believe the CS degree will be the price of admission.
As for longevity, I’ve been at this 20+ years and never
worked for FAANG. I have worked in a lot of industries that positively impacted real people. I’ve also worked with a lot of smart people who had great ideas of how to improve outcomes but lacked the technical skills to bring it to life. IMO more fulfilling and probably why I’m still building software and enthusiastic about it.
Good luck, the world still needs software engineers.
It is trendy now, to dump on the tech career. It is just the tendency of the moment, for the ones that look at it from outside. I have a tech career and I love it. Despite the current reality, I'm confident it will continue to be a rewarding career for still many years. Forrest's article describes risks that are real but they won't necessarily happen to everyone's careers.
When I was in college in the 00s software was dead. All jobs were going to India and anyone dumb enough to get a programming degree was going to work at Starbucks. At least that's what they told us. Needless to say, the people who got those degrees were the ones pulling $300,000/yr at Spotify and Facebook before Covid. I think they did alright. My brother stayed on the east coast and still does software for non-tech industries and he's doing fine, albeit not at google and not for $300k but well over $100k.
My point is: these things go in boom and bust cycles, and if you zig when everyone zags you may actually benefit.
500k is a reasonably achievable goal for a software engineer that makes it into FAANG and stays for 2-4 years. Especially with a little luck on your stocks going up.
I think the hard part is that you are surrounded by very good engineers and are in competition with them and competition with every other engineer they can replace you with for 500k (which presumably is a lot.) This is where the higher expectations both internal and external likely derive from.
The interviews themselves I do truly believe are things anyone with a computer science degree can prepare for, how many people have done all 1000 leetcode problems? (This is a clear path on improving coding interviews)
You are correct though once in FAANG to hit the 2 million salaries and be an IC equal to a director or a VP is very rare. You’d have to be technically stronger then others (or at least very strong technically) and then you have to position yourself to be consistently on or leading top projects (which is likely the hardest part). Think things like being the lead engineer for google maps
The truth is, like anything else, you have to work hard. Coming out as a new grad expecting 500k+ isn't realistic.
The big bucks are for the people who can write code, design systems, negotiate, see problems and solve them, TALK TO PEOPLE, lead others, etc etc etc. They ask a lot. Ability to write code gets you in the door.
I am a 55 year old individual contributor: not the boss where I work but a “lead.” I like what I do and I get paid well even though I am not in FAANG. I would not trade jobs with my boss for 5x of my salary. I look at my job as a kind of furniture maker or other builder and I have side projects that teach me things. Yes there are salary caps in tech. I code on vacation for fun: I doubt anyone does project management for fun.if you are into it, software engineering can be a great career, or at least better than the others. Not everything is what it’s cracked up to be. I read an interview with Steven Tyler from Aerosmith and he said that he was so bored playing the same songs every day for 40 years. I thought I wanted to be a rockstar but I don’t think I would’ve wanted that lifestyle.
I do not think he meant it applies to everyone or that everyone will face the events he described. But he described real facts and risks of this career. I read your article too. Both describe paths that are equally possible, depending on one's personal circumstances. Both describe scenarios to be aware of.
If you want to argue that the best days are behind us and AI will obsolete a lot of common development, go right ahead.
But if you want to tell me that wasn't worth getting into the profession 20 years ago because the realistic ceiling is lower than $500k/year, then you suck at math. The median is much, much more important than the ceiling, and the median has been quite high over time. There are a LOT of people who hit $100k at a young age back when $100k was still a big deal, and a lot of people who have been camping at $200k for a number of years now, without needing to be extraordinary. The job market has generally been outstanding, as has the work/life balance.
There are not other fields of study that offered the same level of opportunity to most of the people who have chosen software over the years. And again, the Golden Age does appear to be ending, and it's fair to caution today's 18-year-olds against expecting to do what no longer makes sense. But let's not pretend it never existed.
Good article Forrest. It got me thinking. I have some 17 years in the tech career. I was a manager, but I hit a wall and 3 years ago I pivoted back to individual contributor. I'm loving it right now, and I want to still do precisely this job for many more years, but I'm aware, and your article helps me remember, that I may not want, or be able to, to stick to this kind of role for the ~20 years left in my career, and that I may need to pivot it again in the future.
I can't imagine why anyone would think that there should be a direct road to a seven figure salary, and then complain that you might stop rising at 200k per year. What a strange article that highlights the author's incredible disconnect from reality.
it's fine not to care for a career in software engineering but this article is completely innumerate. why is distinguished engineer the target? you can live a great life as senior or staff. and this section in particular is just obviously wrong:
> Want one of those $500K+ total-comp FAANG engineering jobs? They’re getting harder and harder to find and more and more competitive to win. And holy cow, the people getting those jobs are smart. Like, 99.99th-percentile smart.
you obviously don't have to be 99.99th percentile smart to be a FAANG engineer? collectively, FAANG employ around 120k engineers, out of roughly 3m engineers in the US. so at worst being a FAANG engineer is like a 96th percentile outcome, 3 orders of magnitude better than you suggest.
Other commenters already mentioned the current bad market and the importance of actually liking your job. You don’t have to get into the AI bubble, the competition and hype is crazy there. You are also somewhat underestimating FAANG comp.
What I would like to add is yes the Eng ladder is not as robust as the manager one if your goal is climbing to the top. A lot of the skills are similar at higher levels, so getting this distinguished title is hard. But do you really need it? Think about why.
From the wise perspective of 40, I can tell you this isn't a Software thing. It's a job market thing. Corporations are pyramids and there aren't that many spots on the top. At some point you need to decide whether it's worth jockeying for one of those spots. Instead, maybe, take time to mourn the discovery that you're actually average, and then seek fulfillment outside the workplace.
I graduated with a degree in chemical engineering. I used to look at starting salaries for chemical engineering graduates with pride. I thought that surely their chart-topping entry-level salaries were a testament to their value and intelligence. But even at that time, I had a weird feeling about the long-term prospects. The median engineer does better than the median business person, yes, but the most successful business people far out-pace the most successful engineers.
If you exclude engineering management and engineering consultant work from the career path of engineering, then the career path basically ends with your first job. You might be promoted from Engineer I to Engineer IV, but the basic work and duties is the same. For some that's a blessing. For me, I couldn't handle it.
This is all from a manufacturing perspective. While the sector is never booming, it doesn't suffer the instability that tech does.
Everywhere I look, it’s doom and gloom. Reading nothing but negativity has started affecting my worldview and my life.
I am less than a year away from completing my undergraduate degree in Computer Science and Data Science. A year ago, everyone congratulated me on my hard work and wise decision-making. Over the last six months, though, all I’ve heard is how I’ve wasted my time, how there are no jobs, and how a college degree is supposedly worthless.
I’ve been told multiple times that tech is dead and I should become a plumber because “the trades are the new master’s degree.” Well, you know what? I don’t want to be a plumber, and I am tired of the negativity.
I’m not pursuing a career in tech for the paycheck. Anyone who chooses a career solely for the dollar amount is setting themselves up for a life of misery. I’m on this journey because it aligns with my interests and passions.
To the best of my knowledge, few career options out there guarantee a $500k salary, let alone make it achievable. My family can live a fulfilling, happy life on $60k a year, anything beyond that is just gravy.
now THIS is a comment I do agree with. Stop the crap about being success means solely having an edge salary and begin thinking about living fulfilling life's
Youtubism is the name of the game. Unnecessary hype for anything and everything that is moderately competent. The dirty little secret is that the current down-slump of tech is purely due to extraneous conditions such as high interest rates, acesss to a lot of capital by VCs, AI hype by the article writer, overall economy and the hesitancy to invest, etc. Again, tech has provided a lot of employment and made lives of a lot of people better and we have a long way to go. Walk the streets of SF and even if you are moderately competent about spilling BS about AI and have a decent background, VCs are throwing money at you.
Stick it out, I feel your pain as my son is a HS junior who wants to pursue software development. It’s tough for new/juniors during every downturn, and that will eventually change. But I believe the CS degree will be the price of admission.
As for longevity, I’ve been at this 20+ years and never
worked for FAANG. I have worked in a lot of industries that positively impacted real people. I’ve also worked with a lot of smart people who had great ideas of how to improve outcomes but lacked the technical skills to bring it to life. IMO more fulfilling and probably why I’m still building software and enthusiastic about it.
Good luck, the world still needs software engineers.
It is trendy now, to dump on the tech career. It is just the tendency of the moment, for the ones that look at it from outside. I have a tech career and I love it. Despite the current reality, I'm confident it will continue to be a rewarding career for still many years. Forrest's article describes risks that are real but they won't necessarily happen to everyone's careers.
When I was in college in the 00s software was dead. All jobs were going to India and anyone dumb enough to get a programming degree was going to work at Starbucks. At least that's what they told us. Needless to say, the people who got those degrees were the ones pulling $300,000/yr at Spotify and Facebook before Covid. I think they did alright. My brother stayed on the east coast and still does software for non-tech industries and he's doing fine, albeit not at google and not for $300k but well over $100k.
My point is: these things go in boom and bust cycles, and if you zig when everyone zags you may actually benefit.
500k is a reasonably achievable goal for a software engineer that makes it into FAANG and stays for 2-4 years. Especially with a little luck on your stocks going up.
I think the hard part is that you are surrounded by very good engineers and are in competition with them and competition with every other engineer they can replace you with for 500k (which presumably is a lot.) This is where the higher expectations both internal and external likely derive from.
The interviews themselves I do truly believe are things anyone with a computer science degree can prepare for, how many people have done all 1000 leetcode problems? (This is a clear path on improving coding interviews)
You are correct though once in FAANG to hit the 2 million salaries and be an IC equal to a director or a VP is very rare. You’d have to be technically stronger then others (or at least very strong technically) and then you have to position yourself to be consistently on or leading top projects (which is likely the hardest part). Think things like being the lead engineer for google maps
The truth is, like anything else, you have to work hard. Coming out as a new grad expecting 500k+ isn't realistic.
The big bucks are for the people who can write code, design systems, negotiate, see problems and solve them, TALK TO PEOPLE, lead others, etc etc etc. They ask a lot. Ability to write code gets you in the door.
Is $200,000 not a lot of money?
Tech isn’t dead and it won’t die. It will just change.
I am a 55 year old individual contributor: not the boss where I work but a “lead.” I like what I do and I get paid well even though I am not in FAANG. I would not trade jobs with my boss for 5x of my salary. I look at my job as a kind of furniture maker or other builder and I have side projects that teach me things. Yes there are salary caps in tech. I code on vacation for fun: I doubt anyone does project management for fun.if you are into it, software engineering can be a great career, or at least better than the others. Not everything is what it’s cracked up to be. I read an interview with Steven Tyler from Aerosmith and he said that he was so bored playing the same songs every day for 40 years. I thought I wanted to be a rockstar but I don’t think I would’ve wanted that lifestyle.
i dont care about AI but i always say please and thank you to alexa just in case
Not sure what this is complaining about. Software Engineering is not a get-rich-quick scheme, but it is a good-paying job.
Still, you need a lot more than that to live a happy life.
Great thoughts Forrest, but they don't apply well to many of us! My response:
https://sheepcode.substack.com/p/im-glad-to-be-a-33-years-old-ancient
I do not think he meant it applies to everyone or that everyone will face the events he described. But he described real facts and risks of this career. I read your article too. Both describe paths that are equally possible, depending on one's personal circumstances. Both describe scenarios to be aware of.
I agree!
Do you guys even like to code and learning about computers or is it solely a need to hit 500k annual salary?
If you want to argue that the best days are behind us and AI will obsolete a lot of common development, go right ahead.
But if you want to tell me that wasn't worth getting into the profession 20 years ago because the realistic ceiling is lower than $500k/year, then you suck at math. The median is much, much more important than the ceiling, and the median has been quite high over time. There are a LOT of people who hit $100k at a young age back when $100k was still a big deal, and a lot of people who have been camping at $200k for a number of years now, without needing to be extraordinary. The job market has generally been outstanding, as has the work/life balance.
There are not other fields of study that offered the same level of opportunity to most of the people who have chosen software over the years. And again, the Golden Age does appear to be ending, and it's fair to caution today's 18-year-olds against expecting to do what no longer makes sense. But let's not pretend it never existed.
Good article Forrest. It got me thinking. I have some 17 years in the tech career. I was a manager, but I hit a wall and 3 years ago I pivoted back to individual contributor. I'm loving it right now, and I want to still do precisely this job for many more years, but I'm aware, and your article helps me remember, that I may not want, or be able to, to stick to this kind of role for the ~20 years left in my career, and that I may need to pivot it again in the future.
Well written and emotionally intelligent ... for a 32 year old.
The comic at the end is fantastic.
I can't imagine why anyone would think that there should be a direct road to a seven figure salary, and then complain that you might stop rising at 200k per year. What a strange article that highlights the author's incredible disconnect from reality.
it's fine not to care for a career in software engineering but this article is completely innumerate. why is distinguished engineer the target? you can live a great life as senior or staff. and this section in particular is just obviously wrong:
> Want one of those $500K+ total-comp FAANG engineering jobs? They’re getting harder and harder to find and more and more competitive to win. And holy cow, the people getting those jobs are smart. Like, 99.99th-percentile smart.
you obviously don't have to be 99.99th percentile smart to be a FAANG engineer? collectively, FAANG employ around 120k engineers, out of roughly 3m engineers in the US. so at worst being a FAANG engineer is like a 96th percentile outcome, 3 orders of magnitude better than you suggest.
Other commenters already mentioned the current bad market and the importance of actually liking your job. You don’t have to get into the AI bubble, the competition and hype is crazy there. You are also somewhat underestimating FAANG comp.
What I would like to add is yes the Eng ladder is not as robust as the manager one if your goal is climbing to the top. A lot of the skills are similar at higher levels, so getting this distinguished title is hard. But do you really need it? Think about why.
From the wise perspective of 40, I can tell you this isn't a Software thing. It's a job market thing. Corporations are pyramids and there aren't that many spots on the top. At some point you need to decide whether it's worth jockeying for one of those spots. Instead, maybe, take time to mourn the discovery that you're actually average, and then seek fulfillment outside the workplace.
Thank you for an excellent article.
I graduated with a degree in chemical engineering. I used to look at starting salaries for chemical engineering graduates with pride. I thought that surely their chart-topping entry-level salaries were a testament to their value and intelligence. But even at that time, I had a weird feeling about the long-term prospects. The median engineer does better than the median business person, yes, but the most successful business people far out-pace the most successful engineers.
If you exclude engineering management and engineering consultant work from the career path of engineering, then the career path basically ends with your first job. You might be promoted from Engineer I to Engineer IV, but the basic work and duties is the same. For some that's a blessing. For me, I couldn't handle it.
This is all from a manufacturing perspective. While the sector is never booming, it doesn't suffer the instability that tech does.